This is a longish post, sorry for that, but frankly it needs to be since I need some proper answers.

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I have a problem with my internet connection, but am not much wiser about what to do about it after 2 conversations with Zen technical support staff.

I recently moved house and am using the same equipment that gave me a rock solid connection previously. I understand that I have now been put onto the "21st Century Network".

In my first conversation with support staff I was asked the usual type of reasonable questions about filters, where the router was plugged in etc. I was asked about what make my router is and he said that there had been no reported problems with them, though he suggested that I reset it to the factory defaults and put in all the connection information again. He said that Zen would check the equipment at their end and that if I had continuing problems to get in touch again.

This was on Monday 15th after having severe connection problems over the weekend.  The rest of Monday was good, no dropped logins that I can remember and I went out in the evening.

Tuesday was pretty good though Wednesday less so. I was out again on Tuesday and Wednesday evenings, significant since the vast majority of the dropouts have been in the evenings starting around 5pm or so. I got back on Wednesday night and had great difficulty downloading a video from the BBC. The router will stay logged in for hours at a time and then (more often than not in the late afternoon), start dropping the log-in every 5 to 10 minutes.

I was back online heavily today (Thusday 18th) and frankly it's been ridiculous. Constant dropped logins, some websites working whilst others couldn't be contacted. I could often ping bbc.co.uk whilst I couldn't get anything in the browser. I even tried changing the DNS serves to opendns, though I then noticed what was usually happening was that the DNS was still being resolved and webpages not downloaded.

I use IRC quite heavily so the constant dropouts are a real pain, part way through discussion giving people support on Freenode my connection will just disappear. Many downloads don't finish. Podcasts don't get downloaded etc etc.

So, today I rang Zen technical support again, though this time it was a rather different experience. I was told in this second conversation that my router was not compatible with ADSL2 (sic) and therefore I would have to get a new router rather than have the line tested or other things investigated. I was told that this is a hardware issue with the router since it is not "ADSL2 compatible" (ie. any theoretical firmware upgrade would have no effect). I was also told that a new router was "only" £40 to £50 and far cheaper than the £150 that I would have to pay BT for the line to be tested.

It also was suggested by this second support person that the fact that my connection speed is capped could be affecting my log in. Frankly, this makes no sense to me since the cap is performed by Zen, not on the ADSL connection run by BT which is negotiating at a higher speed. Right now it's 8128Kb/992Kb and *please note* the ADSL line itself is not being dropped by the router.

As an aside, I am a little tired of having to explain why I wish to stick with my Zen package (Home 350) every time that I phone Zen. If Zen allow people to stay on older/discontinued plans then this should be accepted, I have my reasons. I also found the little talk from this second support person using childish analogies about how ancient my 2 year old router is and how electrical things do go wrong etc. very patronising.

Frankly, the "advice" from Zen support staff has been contradictory and when I contacted BT themslves they said that older equipment will work on ADSL2+ (ie. the "21st Century Network"), though obviously not at the newer faster speeds

In all I am pretty unhappy at the reaction of Zen support staff to this issue, and am not clear what is to happen next.

May I ask what router you do have, I dont see it in your post, maybe I missed it, but what make and model of router do you have.

A 2 year old router is more than capable of being made to adsl2 standards as I have older routers that support it, so if you could tell us the make and model, maybe we can help tell you if the router really is adsl2+ capable.

Saying that, some routers do say they are compatible with adsl2+, yet they wont work worth a shizznit on a adsl2/+ line.

Personally, if you have just moved house, if your equipment was working fine beforehand, then I would suspect wiring in the house or in your area to be the problem, as dropouts mid afternoon and evening are a sign of interference from electrical activity, like lamposts being turned on and people using lots of electrical items in the home mid afternoon onwards, you just have to read the forums to see the amount of people who have had problems associated with things like that.

If you have never had a decent working line at your new location, then seriously consider the line as being the problem, try and connect to the backplate of the main bt socket and see if that cures the problem, if it does then internal wiring is at fault, if it doesnt and you have tried a couple of known adsl2+ routers, then that would in all intents purposes point to the bt line as being the source of the problem, where on that line is a hard one to guess as it could be under your floorboards or way back at the exchange.

My router sometimes drops, but stays sync to the actual dsl signal, happens about once every 30 days or so and lasts for 5 seconds if that, the internet light ont he router will go out but the adsl connection light stays on and looking into the router stats, it says that it has not lost sync or resynced, it usually does this in the very early hours, possible BT work at the exchange that does it at my end I think ?

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I Just Dropped In To See What Condition My Condition Was In.

Sorry I didn't mention the make and version of my router. It's a Belkin FSD7632-4, and since I can post here, right now it's online and logged in (morning, Friday February 19th) and syncing at8128Kb/960Kb. As the pattern goes it'll be fine all day (maybe dropping once) until it gets to the evening when it will all go off the rails again.

I've disconnected internal wiring from the BT box and right now the faceplate is off and the filter is plugged into the "test" socket.I'd already moved the router downstairs and plugged it directly into the BT box faceplate before contacting Zen about the connection problems.

 I found this interesting quote on another thread, from a Zen staff member.

"Naturally, to receive an ADSL2+ service you must have hardware that supports ADSL2+ - some old hardware simply doesn't have support for it; however ADSL hardware without ADSL2+ support will still work as a normal ADSL connection can be obtained (i.e. maximum sync of 8Mbit/s down)."

 Phil Long , quoted from this thread: http://forum.zensupport.co.uk/thread/34495.aspx

I thought at the time that what the second Zen support person was saying was a bit odd. I even asked him whether it was normal in relation to 21CN for routers to stay online for say 8 hours at a time (something that the previous support person had noted in amongst all the very short online passages) and then go into a period where it wouldn't stay logged in in for more than 5 or 10 minutes at a time.  He stated that this was normal and expected for routers that didn't have ADSL2+ hardware build into them.

I haven't opted for the 21CN services to be activated on my line, that would be silly anyway considering the account that I am on, and am *perfectly happy* for the router to be syncing at the lower 8Mps ADSL speeds.

Just to clarify, when you say the router won't stay logged in, do you mean that the ADSL line is synchronising but the router logs out, or do you mean that the router is losing synch?

If you are on Windows it would be worth installing a copy of Routerstats from www.vwlowen.co.uk/internet/files.htm

Then let's see what is happening on your line.

If the router is maintaining synch but logging out, then it is likely to be a network issue either at Zen or BT (assuming the router was not somehow damaged in the move).

Otherwise, if the router is losing synch, then that's where routerstats can help by monitoring the number of CRC errors usually caused by interference, line problems or a fault with your exchange equipment.

Sometimes the advice from Zen and the quality of the response varies from individual to individual, so, unfortunately, a few calls to Zen may be needed to get the correct information.

The router seems to be staying in sync and simply logging out. A couple of times I have noticed that it has dropped the ADSL line, but this is only a couple of times out of many, many disconnections.

I don't use Windows I use GNU/Linux.

 It's been behaving so far today, I'll have to see what happens later on in the afternoon.

Hi

quote The router seems to be staying in sync and simply logging out

Do you mean you are losing your PPPoA session ?

Can you access your router log ? 

Can you post your Router stats  see link below if you are not sure how to.

http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/frogstats.php

Regards Jeff

 

Andrew Wigglesworth:

The router seems to be staying in sync and simply logging out. A couple of times I have noticed that it has dropped the ADSL line, but this is only a couple of times out of many, many disconnections.

That suggests the problem is either with the router, or with the BT/Zen network which is dropping you.

One obvious thing to check is the router setting to 'connect automatically as required' - whatever that option is called on the Belkin.

The only way to eliminate the router as a cause is to beg/borrow another one and try it. On e-bay routers are so cheap it's worth a punt. 

Then, if it's not the router, then it's down to Zen.

Looking on the net and at the belkin site, it says your router is adsl2+ compatible, so it should be ok, why someone at zen told you it wasnt I dont know, but it is, plus the fact that your upload is higher than normal adsl so it is definetly on 21CN.

If their is any firmware updates for your router you would be advised to get them if you havent already.

You have correctly tried out the test socket to see if internal wiring is the cause and you are still experiencing the problem. Have you tried a new filter ? its unlikely the filter is the cause but its best to try a new one if you have a spare, also if you can try another router if possible, that will rule out your hardware and also your internal wiring as being at fault thus as pintosal said, it would then be the BT or zen network thats the cause.

When you went through your 10 day training period when you hooked up your internet at your new house, did you notice any problems within the first 10 days ? did you try and coax the router with some type of software to get you better stats ? I say that because during the 10 day training period, it is very unwise to try and coax better stats out of your connection using software that messes with your routers snr and suchlike, I tried it years ago and totally screwed up my 10 day training period and had to then get a reset and start the period all over again, i admit i was retarded at doing such a thing and sicne then I havent touched those stupid programs. Not saying you did anything like that, but I thought i would mention it in anycase.

To me, it does sound like you have a problem that is not related to your hardware/wiring, I think its something only BT and Zen can work together on and  fix.  Your connection going titsup at night time/evening really sounds like interference from lots of electrical activity, but I am not an engineer and cannot say for sure.

You have done just about everything that you the householder can do, the only thing I can advise is to get hold of someone at zen, try and get someone beyond the first line of support if possible and get them to look into your fault, failing that and only if the problem persists then I would cease the internet from zen and then get it reconnected but thats just me and, it would mean you losing the package that you are on since they dont sell that one anymore, I know its not what you want to hear, but if they coudnt fix it, I would get reconnected as I have found reconnection sorts alot of problems, but, just call and call and call until either zen get it fixed or they send out a bt engineer to check for faults as what you are suffering from just shouldnt be happening.

All that aside, does your normal phoneline suffer from interference ? crackling, echoes, drop outs, static etc etc ? if so then that means you do have a line fault, which is a bt problem and probably wouldnt be picked up at zens end.

Even though you might not have a line fault, maybe its best to dial the line check number with BT who will test your line there and then and then call you back and tell you if their is any faults on your line regarding the voice part, not broadband, just the voice part of your line, maybe a good idea to do that ? If their is a fault with your voice part of your line then that will surely affect your broadband so its probably wise to get the test done and its free.

I would do 2 tests, one during the day when things are normal and one during the evenings when you suffer the most problems.

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I Just Dropped In To See What Condition My Condition Was In.

Well, the problems are continuing, it's now simply constantly dropping the connection every evening to the extent that it's pretty much unusable for what I want.

It's now also regularly dropping the ADSL connection as well.  During the day it hardly drops the connection at all until around 5 or 6 o'clock, then from around 7pm or so it's every few minutes.

Evil-Scotsman, haven't done any tweaking of the connection with software etc. and the problem is not with the speed anyway. There were dropouts to begin with, but that seemed to get better when I plugged the router straight into the BT box and not through the internal wiring.  Since then they've come back with a vengeance, and unless my router has some weird time based fault making it drop connections in the evenings, I can't now see that it is a fault with my setup at home. However, I know that I will be told that I must try another router before anyone will do anything.

I'm trying to organise the loan of a router,  but it's taking a while...

 ps. I can't hear funny noises on the telephone line during the BT "quiet line" test, but then again that's my ear and not a router.

Hi there,

I've come to this thread late, and it's got quite detailed, hopefully I've not missed anything you've written before, but if I have and I'm asking you to repeat yourself - my apologies... 

As well as trying an alternative router it may also be worth checking for any firmware updates for your router - to ensure you're running the latest version.  It's also worth a factory reset if you haven't done so already, as we have seen some routers "misbehaving" after a 21CN migration, until a full factory reset and reconfiguration occurs.  

With evening drops there is also the potential for external interference (e.g.from timed devices within the home, like central heating, or street-lights outside the home, etc.).  It is still well worth trying an alternative router if possible though, as that builds a stronger case for investigation should a fault need to be reported to BT.  If you do need further advice or assistance please contact Technical Support.

With regard to your first post, and the experience with the second person at Zen you spoke to (and his advice on your router and compatibility); I will pass the details on to the relevant Team Leader.  The advice you received was incorrect - not least because a migration to 21CN does not automatically mean a move to an ADSL2+ service.  Migrated services are provided on the equivelant 'up to 8Mbit/s' service, and customers must then chose whether to change to an ADSL2+ service after migration.  The ADSL2+ capabilities of your router are irrelevant, as you are still on a rate-adaptive ADSL (1) connection.

kind regards,
Phil Long

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Phil Long
Performance and Process Improvement Manager - Zen Internet Ltd.

Hi

Any chance to see your router stats  as per my earlier post ?

http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/frogstats.php

Regards Jeff