Zen Internet Support Forum

Well our dsl connection went down for a few days recently due to a problem at the exchange and this caused no end of gnashing of teeth in the office. I'm thinking of signing up with a satellite provider and using one of those clever load-balancing routers from the likes of Peplink in order to have a redundant connection if it ever happens again. Satellite seems relatively affordable now and my thinking is to have a second connection that does not depend at all on copper wires. I notice my dsl connection is still dropping out intermittently. Does anyone have any experience of satellite broadband? I know there are issues with latency but I can't think of anything that would seriously affect, except perhaps the vpn but as it would be a backup connection that shouldn't be an issue.

 

Malc 

Hello,

I've read your posting & I can see where your coming from BUT satalite broadband does have limitations, namely its often severaly limited on the downlink side of things to around 2megs (I'd be most suprised if you'll get more than this in reality).

**Unless costs have dropped radically I'd say satalite broadband is a rather expensive option actually. But if your running a business perhaps thats less of an issue if your unable to work or service clients?

**Be careful NOT all satalite services do actually avoid any data going over BT copper?

Ivan.

You can now get a broadband connection via a mobile phone provider from about £10/m. It comes with a modem that plugs into a usb port and works where ever you have a signal.

Probably a better and cheaper alternative to a sat system for a backup internet system and you can even use it on the move if need be.

 

---

Ken

Zen Active 8000

Middle age is when your classmates are so grey, bald and wrinkled that they don't recognize you.
-Bennet Cerf

I have direct experience (as the 'expert' ho, ho, ho supporting a friend) of 3 mobile's offering in this field.

SMTP is a big, big problem (3's server does not work).

The modem keeps having problems (it's going back to the shop for the 3rd time on Monday); I think it's the SIM 'lockout' or something, but I don't actually own a mobile 'phone (makes me a socialogical study case, I guess) so my experience with them is nill.

But when it works it's great; no match for a real ADSL connection but one hell of a lot better than dial-up.

This has got to be the solution for country bumpkins at the end of long 'phone lines; I was amazed at how cheap it is as previously I'd dismissed mobile 'phone internet connections as going to be way, way too expensive.

You can pay as you go as well, I beleive; more expensive but if it's for back-up then ideal, I'd have thought. 

Na!!  you probably need a satellite phone instead? :-))

Ivan

Wouldnt Cable Broadband and normal ADSL work ? or would you need to have seperate phonelines for that to work in the one premises ?

If it would work it would be a much better solution than satellite, thats just my opinion though.

 

E.S

Hi E.S,

YES! well I had thought of that too but I think Malc wants to be 100% free & independant from BT as I understood it. Even if you have cable based broadband it still tends to traverse BT cooper at some point in most instances. And I think this is even true of satalite based systems.

**With some satellite based systems the uplink side of the system often still travels over BT networks to the transmitting dish at the companies telecoms center. Yes! the downlink is just received to the dish on the house/property.

**Even if you have x2 completely different phone lines coming into or going out from the same business site, both phone lines are bound to be connected to the same BT exchange. So that might not necessarily solve the redundancy issues. I'm wondering if BT might allow a second phone line to be connected to a different phone exchange if that were feasible, that would definitely increase redundancy and half the risks of loss of service. Just a thought?

Ivan.

 

Yea, I was just thinking out aloud and wasn't sure if it would fit his needs.

Ah! Thanks for all the info. I didn't realise that on the upstream the packets might/would probably travel over the copper wires. It's a tricky one this. What do other people do? It seems like you get to this point where a single connection is not reliable or fast enough but then the jump to the next level - leased line or IP vpn is a massive one in terms of cost. Well weirdly enough I had an email before from a satellite provider who I got in touch with ages ago so I'll query this matter of the terrestrial bit.

Hi Malcky,

YES! its problematic true! but it depends how much fault tolerance or redundancy you need given that you've identified that a single line is NOT enough. Also you have to obviously balance that risk against cost?

**If your a wealthy business or a large business you probably go to a private specialist company like Planet internet who have built & own their own global internet and only deal with private business clients & their data requirements. Such a company operates outside of BT systems and have a very impressive private infra structure. 

**You could go back to BT and ask for advise against loss of connectivity & see what they suggest (with in your available budget). I still say you should be looking at a second normal BT phone line which is ADSL enabled and ask BT to connect this second line to a physically different BT exchange if that's possible or feasible. But this does depend upon geographical location i.e. how far away from the second exchange you are situated. A second broadband line would increase your fault tolerances and reduce the risk of loss of connectivity. i.e. the chances of both lines going down at the same time would be thousands to one.

**I doubt the answer to this problem is going to be satellite IMO.

Ivan

This may sound stupid but, if you dont mind about the speed aspect of things and are only worried about not being able to receive emails etc if your adsl connection goes *** up, then zen does have a backup system where you can use a dialup modem to access the internet, now their is less chance of that messing up like adsl as its your physical phone line, so unless your actual phone line died and you cant make any calls at all, then the dialup modem will always connect regardless if your adsl line is working or not.

That would also save you money as all you would need to buy is a 56k modem and just have it setup to use when your adsl goes titsup.

Ok, the obvious bad link here is the speed, but as I say, if your not really worried about speed and are only needing the redundancy to access emails and alike then its worth looking into, unless as cyteck points out, if your a big business or a medium sized business or even just a wealthy broadband user then obviously you wouldnt wanna be stuck with 56k speeds if you have the cash to spare to get a decent second line.

I also doubt that Sat internet is the answer, I know a couple of people in the states who have it due to them living miles away from any exchange for cable or dsl, so they opted for Sat and both of them have not been happy at all with the service they are getting, maybe they are expecting too much from said service, but they are definetly not happy with it and both are waiting for their contracts to run out so that they can go elswhere if possible.

Regarding cyteck's suggestion of 2 BT lines, but to different exchanges being the most resilient, I would have to disagree with this for one main reason- the BT RAS. Although line A terminates at one exchange and line B to another, chances are hight that they wil use the same RAS. If the RAS has issues, which I have seen fairly often, you will lose connectivity on both lines. Although, on the plus side, a RAS issue will generally be treated with high priority as it effects so many users and resolve times are usually a few hours.

 
If you are looking for resiliency, I still think two different mediums is your best bet. A cable provider is not going to use the same infrastructure as your BT phone line for the tail of the circuit AFAK. If I had enough money for a DSL, cable and a satelite based connection but not enough for a leased line, then I would probably go down that route, with the satelite connection being the last hope if for some reason both cable and DSL failed. This may seem excessive, but the importance of internet access to many companies who cannot justify a leased line now-a-days is very great. When I used to work tech support, I had a lot of users comment that without their DSL connection, the entire office could not function, so being a bit overly cautious may well be worth it.
 

Hi again,

I hadn't thought about the RAS angle but I would still have to stronly disagree with cambei here on this because the chances of both seperate ADSL lines being connected at x2 totally different BT phone exchanges both being connected via the same RAS is so small its extremely unlikely as to be almost zero. I still suggest that x2 DSL lines connected at seperate phone exchnages is the right way to go if balanced out against cost. Especially given the tough trading times we are going through, plus x2 seperate DSL lines can be put in place or torn down extremely quickly as required. In addition if you purchase a second DSL line from BT (or the same company) you might even be able to negotiate a discounted rate? i.e. buy one get the second one half price or something (just a thought!).

Ivan

Hi again also,

 I would also have to strongly disagree with this last statement. The chances of two lines being connect to the same RAS is very likely. If you think that are approximately 11 RAS in the country, the chances that they are on the same RAS are quite high. You cannot request to be on two independent RAS when you order your line, and it could change at any time. Interestingly enough, there *appears* to be RAS issues today. Although the RAS you connect to may not necessarily be the closest to your exchange, for example my friend had one line in Manchester connecting to the Sheffield RAS and a line in Sheffield connecting to the Birmingham RAS. There is a higher chance that two exchanges close enough to each other that a user could terminate at both (approximately 6K max to each exchange) will be on the same RAS from my experience.

 With regard to the discounts from BT for two ADSL lines, I very much doubt it indeed. There are a lot of companies out there ordering many more lines than that and still not receiving discounts. The other issue is that a lot of people will not be able to get acceptable levels of service from more than one exchange, based on only one exchange being with reach for a decent service level. My colleague knows of a site that was quite large and required two lines, and because the building spanned two area codes, BT ran one line to one exchange and the second line to another.

 I don't see why one ADSL line and maybe a cable connection for one of the many £16 a month type deals would be less resilient than relying on one company for your entire service. BT have problems like every other provider, not just on the copper from the exchange to the house. Unless you are paying a hefty sum of money to a provider, you are not able to request diversity of paths etc.

 Different mediums with different providers ensures diveristy between providers networks (to a point), and diversity in the actual access to the provider's network IMO.
 

Hi again,

I would be extremely suprised if BT had only 11 RAS in the entire UK I doubt that personally but I'm willing to be proved wrong of course if you know better.

**You might be right about BT and not giving discounts on a second line installation but if you don't ask you don't get & you will never know otherwise (nothing ventured nothing gained).

**YES! different network mediums might be desirable from a redudancy point of view but getting that physically installed might be more problematic. I'm NOT sure but you may well find that a cable company like Virgin Media might not be able to provide a second line if you already have a BT broadband line up & working. i.e. one site but x2 different network providers? (this might not apply being a business though. I think it is the case if its just a domestic setup though) But its certainly worth looking into of course if your still pursuing the matter.

Ivan.