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Music industry expects ISPs to police piracy for them.

Last post 31-07-2008, 9:57 PM by cyteck. 57 replies.
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  •  03-07-2008, 8:34 AM 30892

    Music industry expects ISPs to police piracy for them.

    I have just read this story on the BBC news site:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7486743.stm

    Basically the music industry is saying it will take legal action against ISPs who do not disconnect people known to share music files.

    I do not share music files, as I have an iPod if I want to download music I get it from iTunes, but I believe this new development is wrong. Why should ISPs be expected to police file sharing? That is like asking the Royal Mail to verify that the contents all of letters and parcels are not illegal, and holding them responsible if the contents are illegal.

    The Carphone Warehouse have said they will not comply with this.

    What is Zen's position? 

  •  04-07-2008, 11:04 AM 30896 in reply to 30892

    Re: Music industry expects ISPs to police piracy for them.

  •  08-07-2008, 5:02 PM 30919 in reply to 30892

    Re: Music industry expects ISPs to police piracy for them.

    Andyrew:

    -snipped-

    What is Zen's position? 

    Our position on this is as follows.

    Zen Internet is committed to respecting the privacy of our Customers. We have not entered into any discussions with the BPI.  We currently adhere to existing legal obligations and will continue to do so. We are closely monitoring the progress of the proposed European Legislation.

    Regards

    Gary


    "The Internet is a global collection of single points of failure"
  •  08-07-2008, 6:23 PM 30920 in reply to 30919

    Re: Music industry expects ISPs to police piracy for them.

    I have to agree, my view is that the ISP provides the pipes or to be more accurate access to the pipes but is NOT responsible for what flows through the pipes. Be that data, petrol, oil or widgets for that matter.

    **I cannot see how an ISP can be responsible for the contents of data packets. Even if an ISP attempted to be responsible how could or world they do it? My guess & it is just a guess, is that the ISP would have to buy highly sophisticated equipement to do so. This might involve some like "deep packet inspection" an analysis of each & every packet of data to see inside & determine its contents. Even after this the ISP would have to work out if the content of the packet or packets was illegal and I'm NOT entirely sure how that can be worked out at a legalistic level. I cannot see ISP's going down this route, not now or in the future. Such snooping would take ISP's away from their core business and would not earn them any further revenue so I cannot see the incentives here for any ISP's (much to the annoyance or anger of the BPI & the like).

    **Just a further footnote here: What strikes me as totally ironic is that the entire internet was originally developed to do just that i.e. Share files between academic's & or military personnel back in the days of the ARPA net.

    Ivan

  •  09-07-2008, 8:51 AM 30924 in reply to 30920

    Re: Music industry expects ISPs to police piracy for them.

    If ISP's are held responsible for what goes through thier system to or from customers then BT and other telcoms MUST also be held responsible for what is discussed over thier lines. Also postal services (more illegal content passes this way) must be held responsible for what they deliver to households.

    More polititions need to aquire shares in ISP companies then this stupidity will be stopped.

     


    Ken

    Zen Active 8000

    By the time a family pays off the mortgage for a home in the suburbs, the home isn't home,and the suburbs aren't suburbs.
  •  09-07-2008, 9:51 AM 30925 in reply to 30924

    Re: Music industry expects ISPs to police piracy for them.

    Being realistic for a moment here, anyone who thinks controlling the content of data packets (datagrams) is possible or for anyone to say such & such a content is illegal i.e. files being shared. Shows how little they really understand the nature of the internet or the technologies involved. In other words to think you can control something like file sharing is 100% totally naive & shows little or no idea about the subject.

    **Politicians & Governments generally speaking have to "poor or very poor grasp" of computing or IT & this is born out by successive large scale IT disasters over the years. Such as for example:- The CSA, The Passport Agency, control of home office data or other citizen personal data. i.e. many many laptops which have all been stolen with sensitive data on them.

    **Perhaps the fact that politicians have a poor grasp of IT could be seen as good thing in the end, i.e. less government interference??. Except as we have no national IT policy for the future of the internet (as far as I know?) in the UK we are definitely going to lag behind in terms of E-Commerce and domestic internet services as the infra-struture creeks at the seems as demand increases in the future. Unless something is done to change the telecoms infrastructure at a national level (BT's 21CN is a good step in the right direction but I doubt it will be enough in the short to medium term).

    **Nobody can control file sharing, even if some method was found it would soon be worked around & would quickly become redundant. File sharers would find new pathways or new techniques.

    Ivan.

  •  14-07-2008, 3:46 PM 30953 in reply to 30925

    Re: Music industry expects ISPs to police piracy for them.

    Yeah I think it's called encryption.

    More and more sites with go https ect.

     

  •  14-07-2008, 7:01 PM 30957 in reply to 30953

    Re: Music industry expects ISPs to police piracy for them.

    Hi,

    YEP!! that's about right in my opinion too.

    **And if encryption is used it doesn't matter how clever or expensive your ISP deep packet inspection equipment or tools are your NOT going to see the contents of the packets concerned. Case closed I think. Enough said.

    Ivan.

  •  14-07-2008, 9:19 PM 30960 in reply to 30957

    Re: Music industry expects ISPs to police piracy for them.

    BUT and that is a BIG but,

    With everyone using encryption what are the security services going to use to filter out the real criminals?

    I would guess they look at encryption as someone who has something to hide, but what if the majority are using it because of file sharing?

    Makes us all vunerable. 

  •  14-07-2008, 11:27 PM 30962 in reply to 30960

    Re: Music industry expects ISPs to police piracy for them.

    That's just called a self fulfilling prophecy I think?

    **Its already a prosecutable offense in some court cases NOT TO reveal or give over the password to encrypted files or other forms of electronic media. As you say if a file is encrypted & you with hold the password or encryption key you are assumed to be hiding something or withholding something i.e presumed guilty as a consequence thereof. An example of this very thing might be child porn cases were actual image files might have been encrypted but are required as evidence. Yes! I know this is abit off the original topic though.

    Ivan

  •  15-07-2008, 9:01 AM 30963 in reply to 30960

    Re: Music industry expects ISPs to police piracy for them.

    My personal viewpoint on encryption of data is this : do you send postcards or letters in envelopes ? They both achieve the same thing in that they provide a mechanism to convey a message to the recipient. One however allows the delivery service to read the contents and the other wraps it up in a read-proof and tamper-evident container. I would be very upset if my bank statements arrived as a series of postcards.

    I don't use encryption much for email at the moment but I do use OTR within Pidgin to encrypt the vast majority of my IMs - I don't want discussions with my wife regarding finances etc to be read by the IM providers. Does that make me a terrorist or just someone that wants my privacy respected ?

    Just my personal 2p.


    --
    Jerry Nicholls
    Principal Systems Engineer
    perl -e '$_=q(print "perl -e \x27\$_=q($_);eval\x27\n");eval'
  •  15-07-2008, 10:45 AM 30965 in reply to 30963

    Re: Music industry expects ISPs to police piracy for them.

    Hi Jerry,

    I totally agree with the point your making, and its well stated too. I chose rather an extreme & blunt example above.

    Ivan

  •  15-07-2008, 3:18 PM 30968 in reply to 30965

    Re: Music industry expects ISPs to police piracy for them.

    The government could ban all ISP's from passing anything that is encrypted. Unless of coarse the message or file contained a back door known to them.

     


    Ken

    Zen Active 8000

    By the time a family pays off the mortgage for a home in the suburbs, the home isn't home,and the suburbs aren't suburbs.
  •  15-07-2008, 3:49 PM 30969 in reply to 30968

    Re: Music industry expects ISPs to police piracy for them.

    Ya Right !! and most of UK business would either collapse or there would be an outrage over something as draconian as that. Why? Most large corporations or SME use encryption most of the time for one & secondly how could that be enforced or policed. No! I think NOT. I cannot see that one working Ken.

    **It would also be totally hypocritical too as governments & government departments like MI5 also use & relies on encryption to some time? when they are NOT loosing our personal data? :-))

    Ivan.

     

  •  15-07-2008, 3:58 PM 30970 in reply to 30968

    Re: Music industry expects ISPs to police piracy for them.

    Ken Odlum:

    The government could ban all ISP's from passing anything that is encrypted. Unless of coarse the message or file contained a back door known to them.

    Which would of course drive criminals to using two layer encryption whereby the backdoor reveals a harmless recipe for chocolate brownies but the real decryption key give something different. Or. revert to stenography - simple typos in the text actually encode some other message. Here's a challenge - decode my avatar icon - that's simple stenography not just the collection of randomly coloured squares it seems ...


    --
    Jerry Nicholls
    Principal Systems Engineer
    perl -e '$_=q(print "perl -e \x27\$_=q($_);eval\x27\n");eval'
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